Josh – The Lawyer Who Tried to Avoid Law

Jonathan Collaton: 0:14

Good morning, good afternoon or good evening, you're listening to career crossroads. And if you're new here, welcome. And if you're not new, welcome back. My name is Jonathan Collaton. And this is my podcast where I speak to one person each week, but all the decisions that led them to their current career path. This week's interview is with Josh, who currently works as a lawyer in London, England, along the way to finding out how he ended up working as a lawyer. Despite trying to avoid it at every possible turn. We have some really good conversation about the pressure that young people feel to fall in line and get a good job with a good paycheck. We do a lot of exploring the question why we are that way. So take a listen. And then after as I do every week, I will share what I learned from Josh. Josh, welcome to career crossroads. So excited to have you here today. How you doing?

Josh De Luna: 1:11

I'm doing well. Thank you for having me. This is this is exciting.

Jonathan Collaton: 1:15

I'm glad that it's exciting. And I hope the little conversation we had about Star Wars just now has calmed your nerves a little bit. And but we we didn't get too deep into it. Because I think as you maybe mentioned, there might be a bit of a debate we have to have about the which movies are the best. And we don't want to get into that before we do this recording.

Josh De Luna: 1:35

I think you and I both know episode nine is undoubtedly the best Star Wars movie.

Jonathan Collaton: 1:41

Oh, dear God.

Josh De Luna: 1:44

That was that wassarcasm for your audienceus. That was the i don't i don't mean that at all. Please, don't hang me out to dry.

Jonathan Collaton: 1:51

No, that's, that's good to know that that was sarcasm, because that would this would have taken a turn for the worst early on. But no, it's gonna be I'm sure we're gonna have a good conversation. Now we had. Yeah, we had discussed the other day that maybe we would hang out and have a beer during this. But it's a little hard to do, given that it's 4pm where you are and it's 11am where I am. So I decided I would stick with coffee for the morning. What are you drinking though?

Josh De Luna: 2:17

I am having an Irish Coffee.

Jonathan Collaton: 2:19

So there you go. That's a good middleground.

Josh De Luna: 2:22

Exactly. I will you You got me nervous because I didn't want to be the only one drinking while we were doing this. I was like, Well, let me compromise here. Because Yeah,

Jonathan Collaton: 2:32

I understand that. And frankly, by the time we're done this recording, it'll be noon here probably so I can crack open one after.

Josh De Luna: 2:40

Is it is that the rule for you just pause so long as it's past midday, it's good?

Jonathan Collaton: 2:45

The rule changes day by day. Depends on how much I have to do on any given day.

Unknown: 2:51

Yeah, see, my rule is just the moment my eyes are open. You can

Jonathan Collaton: 2:56

Oh, there you go.

Unknown: 2:57

Yeah, so long as you've retained consciousness from the night before. You're okay.

Jonathan Collaton: 3:01

Okay. Well, now I'm super curious to hear how you ended up doing what you do now, given the excessive drinking that we're talking about right now. Yeah. So to confirm you're talking to me from London, England today? no sorry.

Josh De Luna: 3:17

No, not technically. Yeah, no, I left London during the pandemic. I'm actually in Essex at the moment in my hometown, excited to be with a family during this weird time that we're kind of traversing so we're everybody here is work from home, according to government guidelines, so I'm working from home in my childhood bedroom. That I feel like that's kind of what everybody's having to do. So it's it's nice to traverse through memories while I undergo work. It's It's a weird combination. But we're working with it. We're dealing with it.

Jonathan Collaton: 3:53

Well, that's actually a pretty good segue, because Today, we're gonna talk about your memories from your childhood. And take me back to when you were a teenager in high school. I usually say around 16 years old and tell me what you were like, what influenced you? And what were you all about?

Unknown: 4:11

Oh, gosh, that's a big question. When I was 16, I, I was definitely a bit troublesome at school. I was a I was a big chatter. So I, I don't think I ever really knew that at the time. But now looking back on it, I like to talk a lot. And I definitely like to talk back as well. Not necessarily in a bad way. I was always just curious about things. I loved asking questions. And I think as a kid, I was always taught to be curious about things. You know, you always want to learn and you always want to understand how things work, which I grew up in a Catholic household, I went to a Catholic school. Sometimes questioning things isn't always the best thing. You know, it's not always encouraged. In sort of the religion that I was brought up in, and I remember, there were always situations where I would get in trouble for asking too many questions. But, you know, I think that when it comes to influences as a young kid, you kind of, for me, at least, one thing that influenced me a lot was the people that I was surrounded with, you know, I was part of that group at school that was quite nerdy, didn't really kind of kept themselves to ourselves. And we, we were just very, we were very by the books, and we kind of enjoyed each other's company very, you know, we liked our board games, and we liked going around each other's house playing, you know, computer games, and whatever. And that was kind of what influenced me, and that drove drove me to kind of trying to learn more and trying to understand what was going on around me, especially I think, naturally, as a, as a queer teen, who was an immigrant, you're always just naturally curious, because the society that was mainstream told you, that's not how things work. And then you kind of internally look at yourself and think, but this is how I feel. So why is why is it? Why is that the case? You know?

Jonathan Collaton: 6:20

Yeah, so like, that's a, that's a very different experience than that I would have had where, like, I'm a, a white, middle class male, straight male in a society that was built by white middle class male. So yeah, that and I also went to Catholic school. So the, the questioning of some aspects was definitely there for me, but I definitely had less questioning to do because I was kind of brought up with like, that's the way things were. So that's quite a different experience.

Unknown: 6:48

Yeah. And I think that, oftentimes, when we say we are questioning things, or I mean, don't get me wrong, I was in a school that really encouraged learning and education and all of that. But when you start to traverse into topics that were not considered part of the curriculum, or was no longer considered a part of what you need to know, then there was certain there was a questioning of why were you thinking about that? Why is that such an uncertainty? Why is there? Why are you so curious about something that you don't need to know anything about? But I think that when you're, when you're a teenager, all of that goes out the door? Like, we there's no boundaries? When you're a teenager, really, when it comes to asking questions, you're that entire period, you're just questioning yourself. And I think most people get through it, the other side being like, well, I got through that stage in my life, let's put that to the one side. But for most people, at least, what I find is, then you look back on that moment, and think actually, I didn't get any of the answers that I wanted to, I didn't, I didn't get any of the any of the certainty that that you wanted, when it comes to education, or when it comes to your identity or your culture. You didn't get any of that. And then so you're kind of left post teens, while at university, while sort of you're being asked to make all these serious decisions in life, suddenly posing yourself those same questions again, because they were never answered. And I think that's a fascinating part of people's upbringing that we don't really talk about, we don't talk about how in our late teens, early 20s, a huge part of it is just, well, what what actually was the answer to some of the questions around my identity and my culture that nobody wanted to talk about? Because it was far too taboo?

Jonathan Collaton: 8:48

Definitely, yeah. Yeah. So like, you got a lot of things that you're thinking about at that point in your life and questioning so many different things. And I imagine that at the same time, you're getting some maybe pressure from parents, like a lot of us do about Exactly. Okay, when you're done High School, what are you going to do? And you mentioned University, so I'm going to assume you got sort of nudged in that direction. What was that kind of process like?

Josh De Luna: 9:16

So, you know, in in the UK, there isn't really, that when I was growing up, there wasn't really many alternatives to use it. You know, they always sort of said, Oh, well, there's this option to do an apprenticeship, which is kind of a vocational career that people always sort of schools would tout.

Jonathan Collaton: 9:35

Like a trade?

Josh De Luna: 9:35

Yeah, like it was kind of like a trade that schools would tout. But really, they touted to sort of say, but it's not as good as University. And certainly when I was back in, back in my days at college, or we call it sixth form here, it's probably the equivalent is probably college for Canadians, or for other audiences out there. When when we when they would tout that It wasn't as well funded, it wasn't as well organized. So really University was kind of the only option that you had. And like you said, there was that additional cultural dynamic that I had. I my parents are Asian, and that really, for Asians, there were three choices that you had, which was either doctor lawyer, or, or engineer, you know, I feel like a lot of Asians would really would really feel me on that moment right there. Because

Jonathan Collaton: 10:30

it's every cultural stereotype I've heard on every television show I've ever seen in my life.

Unknown: 10:35

Absolutely, absolutely. And, yeah, so those were my choices. But I do remember as well, kind of, like you said, while you were posing all of these big identity crisis that I guess you were having as a teenager, you were then being forced to make decisions about the later parts of your life that Sunday, the all these questions kind of come at you all at once, which I find fascinating that we pressure young people into making those decisions. So early on. But I yeah, I went to university, I studied law at university. And I think for me, I studied law without the choice, or without the reasoning, at least, that I wanted to be a lawyer. For me, going to university was about the experience. It was about the learning. It was about, you know, trying to educate myself and trying to better myself, it was never about, for me, I think a lot for a lot of young people University is a way to get into the career that they wanted. Or it's it's a way it's doors opening or more opportunities. For me. I never really saw it as that. And I think sometimes that's probably my middle class coming through. Because, you know, I'm, I come from quite a well to do family. But I think sometimes that comes across when I say oh, I was just at uni just for the experience. And I wanted to do law because it was cool. And it was you know, I watched law and order. And, you know, I wanted to say, I object in court. And you know, How to Get Away with Murder had just come out and Shonda Rhimes was giving us all these legal dramas. And I was like, Yes, I'm just here for that. But actually, when I look back on my days at university, what's fascinating is, I really didn't think that that was the career that I wanted to do, I was so away from the idea of a career for me, it was leaving my bohemian lifestyle at school at university, trying to understand myself and trying to sort of understand my identity and where I fit in to kind of this cultural relevance, I guess.

Jonathan Collaton: 12:41

Hmm, that's interesting. So you pick law just based out of a general interest in it, and law and order, which is the third time law and order has been mentioned on this podcast, you're the third person to say law and order influenced you in one way or another? So what a cultural icon of a show that truly has become. And so I guess, because, do you think it was because there wasn't a lot of...you didn't feel a lot of pressure on yourself to worry about what would come next that you just...

Josh De Luna: 13:14

Yeah, no, I think when, when you're trying to get through your career or your education, for me, my reasoning to at least keep the parents at bay was just to get through each stage. Right. So when I was in college or sixth form, it was just to get the grades to get into university. And so once you're done with that, what's the stage after that would appease them get into university? Once I get into university? Well, what, what subjects should I do to appease them? law? Like, for me, it was just the case of let me just do what I need to at each stage in order to do what I need to do to understand myself to learn all of those things, but at the same time, make sure that I don't rattle the cage too much that I cause upset and uproar, you know, yeah, that makes sense. So when I was at university, I knew that I was studying law. But it was never for the purpose of you know, I'm going to be a lawyer. Yeah, I was. The,

Jonathan Collaton: 14:18

This is the thing that I'm interested in, and my parents are happy that I'm doing it, and we'll just see what happens.

Josh De Luna: 14:24

Yeah. And I think, you know, law is such a competitive industry anyway, that when I got into uni, I was suddenly catapulted with people that were so different for me. I was so I grew up in East London. I grew up in Essex, so it's very, it's a very, I went to school that was very diverse, very different. We were always sort of considered the low income bracket of schools, but our school was Catholic, so it was kind of supported by the parish and all of that. And then I go to university I went to the University of Birmingham which is up in the Midlands. And suddenly, I was surrounded by really different groups of people to the people that I had grown up with. And that was, that was a different take and being in law, surrounded by those people. You certainly felt that there were people there who were like, I'm here to be a lawyer. I'm going to be the next. Ruth Bader Ginsburg who I'm going to be the next Baroness Hale. Baroness Hale is the president of the Supreme Court here in the UK. So yeah, so there was like this. I think with law students, there was this attitude of being really competitive and being really, you know, I'm going to be the best of the best of the best. And I was at uni, just trying to get through my first year, I was really gentle. I was at uni being like, oh, but I'm having such a good time I'm enjoying my nights out. I'm enjoying all of the societies that I'm a part of. And suddenly, you get to exam season and you're like, wow, I really should have revised. But yeah, no, I, I think that for me, going through university was definitely a bit of a roller coaster because I wasn't. I don't think I was as competitive. I mean, I wasn't, yeah, no, I wasn't as competitive as many of the law students around me, who definitely knew that they were so sure that pursuing a career in law, was what they wanted to do. And that just wasn't, I knew for me, at the time, I was like, Nah, we don't we don't need we don't need that.

Jonathan Collaton: 16:31

Did you ever at some point, given that, question whether or not it was worth staying in that program? Or maybe you would switch to something else? Or were you just committed to like four years or five years, however long it was gonna take you you were gonna go through, get the degree and then be done with it. And then then figure out what after that?

Josh De Luna: 16:46

you know, this is a really funny story, because so University here for most courses here in the UK is three years. And I think I get I go to my final year, and I sat down with a friend, and I said, Well, what's the plan after? Like, what is what is the plan? So usually, to become a lawyer, or at least the equivalent of a lawyer here in the UK, which is a solicitor, you need to secure a training contract to have people sort of take you on and train you.

Jonathan Collaton: 17:14

And just as a side note, I think technically lawyers are called solicitors here to barristers. Maybe

Josh De Luna: 17:21

Oh, yeah, we've got both.

Jonathan Collaton: 17:22

Yeah. And I think it's because like, we, you know, come from a British system. So we use a lot of the same words, but then we've picked up these American words like lawyer and just subtracted or substituted them.

Josh De Luna: 17:34

Yeah. Just kind of use them even though they don't really have any meaningful context in there. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Jonathan Collaton: 17:39

Like our driver's licenses, say, I think, or maybe our health cards, say, our height in meters. But then we all refer to how tall we are. And feet and inches. Yeah, you know, that cross cultural thing.

Josh De Luna: 17:48

We've hot the same here. Yeah, we've got the same here. So yeah, anyway, I was sat with my friend. And we were both like looking at each other, like, what do we do after uni? What is what is the plan. And for me, I had never questioned about leaving the program, because it was kind of doing well in it. You know, I was getting through the years I was getting through the exams. And for me, if I'm learning and if I'm succeeding in something, I enjoy it, I enjoy doing well, and the things that I meant to be doing well in. So we both sat down and final year, there may have been alcohol and a few other substances involved. And we both kind of looked at each other. And we were like, what do we do? Because final year is coming up. It's nearly over. Where do we go from here? And I said, I refuse to pursue a career in law. I am not doing it. I am not going to turn into one of my peers who really kind of kowtow to the system. I really thought I was so I really thought I was so independent, independent minded being like, yeah, let me continue live living my free lifestyle.

Jonathan Collaton: 18:54

I got the degree but I'm gonna do me.

Josh De Luna: 18:56

Yeah, I'm gonna do me, I'm gonna do my own thing. Yeah, so I had that. And then this kind of program, this sort of internship kind of came up in Brazil, for working for an environmental NGO. And I always said, If I wanted to be a lawyer, I wanted to be an environmental lawyer, because, you know, I wanted to help the people that that came after me, you know, that kind of hoity toity mindset that I had. But

Jonathan Collaton: 19:24

you're typically not the stuff you actually see on law and order.

Josh De Luna: 19:27

Yeah, you know what I mean? So, law and order, it only influenced me so much. Right? Um, yeah. So I was like, so yeah, I saw this advertising advertisement for an environmental NGO, a completely new startup. I'd only been around for a few years. And I was like, let's go. after we graduate. Let's just go to Brazil and just enjoy our lives. And we did. We went to Brazil. We landed in Bahia airport. So it wasn't in the city, we were like very rural in Brazil. And we didn't know a word. We didn't know a word of Portuguese. So for context, my granddad's Portuguese, but Brazilian Portuguese is very different from European, Portuguese. So I didn't know what people were saying to me, I had no clue what was happening. And, yeah, we kind of lived a few months of just again, delaying life moving forward, we've got we're kind of latched on to to our uni lifestyle of traveling and enjoying ourselves. But having said that, those few months in Brazil was probably the most worthwhile to my career that I had ever done. Because it taught us to be, it taught us intuition, it taught us to think on our feet, with not knowing a language really forces you to think independently. So even though it was for the purpose of trying to get away from life, and trying to get away from leaving University have, after three years of, you know, enjoying your lifestyle, and adding a bit more on that, after all of that, it kind of contributed a lot to my mindset now, which was very, try to make do or at least try to, to be the best that you can be and try to learn as well, like that was again, a huge part of my experience in Brazil was learning and, you know, understanding the culture and kind of being surrounded by people who were really passionate about what they wanted to do. I think that was something that really, really attached itself to me was just how passionate my colleagues were working for an environmental, NGO, and youth development, all of that stuff really stuck with me. So I guess that was one lesson that that I learned,

Jonathan Collaton: 21:52

Hmmm. So for something that was that impactful on you at that point in time? How did you come across this this organization's internship? you mentioned that you just saw an ad for it? Is this like, you're waiting at like a bus stop and you see an ad on a poll, or were you like actively searching things out online?

Josh De Luna: 22:10

I wasn't act i was actively searching out internships. I hadn't thought about going to a foreign country that was just not I didn't speak the language. Yeah, especially speak the language. The most I ever thought about was like doing those American summer camps. I'm not sure if you like see, like, I always see on Instagram, all these Brits going over to America and doing like Peace Corps summer camps. And I'm like, Damn, I want to do one of those. Um,

Jonathan Collaton: 22:35

yeah, we have them here too.

Josh De Luna: 22:36

Yeah. So everyone's that's something that a lot of people were doing, at least on Instagram. And I was like, Damn, I really want to do that.

Jonathan Collaton: 22:45

So they're like a much more realistic version of the film and TV show Wet Hot American Summer.

Josh De Luna: 22:53

Yeah.

Jonathan Collaton: 22:53

Yeah, it's like that without the motorcycle crashes and insane drugs.

Unknown: 22:58

You know the other thing is, is we had a I was I had seen probably isn't a good film. This probably isn't a good film to be bringing out but I had seen American Pie bad camp. I was thinking twice. I was like, down like Americans really live life to full.

Jonathan Collaton: 23:16

You're like those guys have a good time.

Josh De Luna: 23:19

Yeah,

Jonathan Collaton: 23:21

I was never a bad kid. So I can't speak to that experience. But I've seen that movie. So I know what you're talking about.

Josh De Luna: 23:28

I feel like I feel like, you know, there are a lot of many. There are many boys that those films came out when we were kind of coming of age. And they're kind of those are what those films are. I feel like anybody who's like a millennial, up to like 3536. And you talk to them about American Pie, and they claim to have never seen that film is lying to you? Because they wouldn't. Yeah, that you would have seen it.

Jonathan Collaton: 23:53

Definitely. Okay, so you have this American Pie vision of what could happen if you were to go to a summer camp in America. And instead, you end up picking Brazil and like was your plan to just like pick the language up as you got there? You'd be able to pick it up.

Josh De Luna: 24:09

You know, this is I'm so naive. Because as an English speaker, I assumed that there were English speakers in Brazil. I was like you know what, it's a really big economy. People there do business all the time. They will know how to speak English of course, they would right?

Jonathan Collaton: 24:24

well and was the advertisement written in English?

Josh De Luna: 24:27

Yeah the advertisement was written in English.

Jonathan Collaton: 24:30

I would probably suspect you'd be okay to

Josh De Luna: 24:32

exactly. The other thing as well though, is it did say, you know, applicants need to be like basic Portuguese speakers. And in my head, I'm thinking basic is like Hello, goodbye. Right in my head. I'm thinking, if I know how to say hello, if I know vaguely how to ask questions, and say goodbye, I'm good. And then when we were kind of in Brazil, finally. We were in a Taxi on our way to kind of our living quarters there. And we were talking to the taxi driver and we're like, do you know where we're going? And he was like, no follow up with the guests. And I was like, Oh my god, like, this guy doesn't speak a word of English. And we had been wanting to be honest with you. We had been one of the organizers that brought us to Brazil, said to us, you know, you're going to be living in a rural part of Brazil. There are English speakers and there is a very small English speaking community because there are American expats here and there are some British expats. But locals that you would need to be working with don't speak a word of English. And my young naive had really thought that that just meant I can wing it. Like I can learn the language as I go, you know, I can have my Eat Pray Love moment of just going over there and let's just wing it. Like, let's just do it. That was not the case. I was definitely had had to learn. I had to go to like Portuguese lessons, but like kindergardens that's how basic my training was in Portuguese.

Jonathan Collaton: 26:11

Hey, well, at least you had the option to do that.

Josh De Luna: 26:13

Exactly. They were like, Joshua, you need to be able to speak to people. And I was like, Yeah, no, I definitely do. So yeah, I, I learned the Portuguese that was my plan was just to learn it when I'm there. Let's just wing it, you know, and kind of as the other thing is, as English speakers, I feel that English speakers are very lazy when it comes to learning another language. Because our assumption is always we can just pick it up. Like I feel that when I had friends who were kind of international students who went to my university, they really worked hard to get English, right, right, because they needed that English grade to get into university. And English speakers are not the same. I am bilingual. But having said that, I still have that habit of being an English speaker thinking. I'll just pick it up like English speakers are very lazy like that. They're just, oh, we'll just pick it up. It will, you know, it will come to me. And I will, I will just get it as if to somehow assume that you do ever just get pick things out like you'd

Jonathan Collaton: 27:18

like you'll just absorb the language by being there.

Josh De Luna: 27:20

yeah, exactly. Like because thinking that. That's basically the equivalent of putting a book under your bed or your exam. Yeah, you're kind of just like, just be just having it near me is enough. But yeah, that's that's not the case.

Jonathan Collaton: 27:34

All right. So was this a you said internships, so sometimes internships are paid some are volunteer. Was this paid or volunteer?

Josh De Luna: 27:41

There was this was volunteer, but we did have some of our expenses paid for which was okay, which was nice, which is nice. It was lovely them. But yeah, no, it was a volunteer position.

Jonathan Collaton: 27:53

And how long was it in?

Unknown: 27:54

It was like, oh, gosh, it was like, a few months. I can't remember how many long now how long now? But yeah, it was a it was a few months? And, like four or five months, maybe?

Jonathan Collaton: 28:04

Okay, but not too long.

Josh De Luna: 28:06

And it wasn't too long. No. Yeah.

Jonathan Collaton: 28:08

So when you picked it, did you just think like, when it's done, I'll just come home? And I guess, did you think you would just be able to like, come back live with your parents and figure it out once I got back?

Unknown: 28:19

my plan. My plan was cuz the other thing about the internship was they told you if if you wanted to, you could stay longer. My plan was thinking, Okay, if if I do really well, in this internship, I could be there forever. I'm thinking I could live in Brazil for the rest of my life. Ya know, after five months, I realized that actually, this is not, not that the lifestyle was very different, but it was certainly very, it was definitely a culture shock in many ways. And I get, you know what the thing is, when I was young, I was very, I like to just make rash decisions. Not that that was the rest of the season, we had to think about that for a really long time. But I like to just move I didn't like staying in one place. And so after a few months of reserves, that, you know, I I'm ready for something new, I kind of want to do something new. And I didn't know what that was, again, not thinking. Let me just move on with my with my career. And so yeah, we kind of bid farewell to Brazil, came back to the UK. Had a had a few weeks of I was like, Well, what do I do now. And when I was in Brazil, I'd worked in youth development. So I entered the public sector working in social care, working for quality assurance with young kids in in the care social care services under the care of the of the local authorities. And so I did that for a few months. Thinking that you know, I was like, yeah, this is this is this seems like it's for me, but for the most part, I still really felt Like, I, though I enjoyed that job a lot. And it was definitely, really satisfactory. And in terms of, you know, pay and all of the other things, in terms of it as a career, I really began to question it. Because, you know, for me, it was, Do I did I really want to work in such an emotionally? taxing job, you know, that was really, that was a career that was really difficult, because, you know, you were dealing with young kids who were really undergoing the worst circumstances. And to do that day in and day out, was not something that in my, I think at this point, I was had just turned 22-23. Was that something that I really wanted to do? So I did that. And I said, Actually, you know what this is, this is too much, you know, working in this industry, and kudos to anybody working in social care, or social services, or working with young kids. It's a lot. And so I said, you know, this isn't, this isn't for me, you know, I don't have the, I don't think I have the bearing of like, the emotional weight that this can take on on a person. So I left that, again, still didn't want to do law, I was convinced that I was never going to be a lawyer.

Jonathan Collaton: 31:20

So did you leave that job just with like, I'm just gonna quit and then figure out the next step?

Josh De Luna: 31:26

Yeah.

Jonathan Collaton: 31:26

Like you didn't, if you didn't have something else lined up?

Unknown: 31:29

Yeah, this was this was me, in my early 20s, just leaving jobs, because in my head, I have the safety net of my family, right? Obviously, parents are going to take care of me a privilege that I know now, not many people have. But for me, I was just quitting jobs. Because I was like, You know what, this isn't for me. So I went into the private sector. I worked in contracts and negotiations for a bit and working in sort of had my like, Wolf of Wall Street moment, right, like working in the private sector. And having said that, I took that job on. Because I felt like there was a lot of pressure to if you're like a young person in London, there was a lot of pressure to live and work in London, which is, you know, a really big finance, financial city. So there was a lot of pressure for young people to just be in London and work in London. And I was like, you know, for me, it was kind of a lot of the a lot of the nice things that came with the job was the pay. And also the fact that you were in London, like it's a really good city to work in. And all my friends were working in the city by this stage in my life. So I was like, you know, what, if they're all getting on with their careers, let me get on with mine and work in the private sector.

Jonathan Collaton: 32:42

Right. Now I think you told me you're about 26. Now, right? And so you're talking about when you were 22 or 23, you were doing that job. So I have to ask, because that's like four years ago, I think a lot of that pressure that you felt about working and living in London, and like a certain lifestyle is that Instagram pressure?

Josh De Luna: 33:03

Oh, yeah, definitely. And also not just Instagram pressure. And it's also the fact that my, I come from a very close knit group of friends are all very close. And, like I said, we were very nerdy in school. But when we all left to go to university, we didn't really interact much with each other. after we graduated, we came back home, to kind of figure life out together. And suddenly, you know, I got back from, you know, my trip in Brazil. And they had all pursued careers that they all really wanted to do. Like they were suddenly succeeding in careers that we used to talk about as kids. You know, I have a friend who said that she always wanted to work in government, and suddenly she was in government. She was working as a civil servants, working for the Department of international trade, negotiating, Brexit, all of these things. I have a friend who worked in engineering and people who worked in the finance sector worked in activism. Suddenly, my group of friends were succeeding in careers that they had always wanted to be a part of.

Jonathan Collaton: 34:14

And so when you were learning Portuguese with five year olds.

Josh De Luna: 34:17

I was learning Portuguese with five year olds, I had come back from Brazil. I had met up with everybody and asked everybody what they were doing. And you know, they're working the school offices in London, you know, that pressure really kind of was like, holy cow. I don't know if I can swear on this podcast. But I was like, holy, you know, this is like, people really graduated uni and they just went full steam ahead. And I was like, wow, right. Like people really, there was no delay to other people's lives, like they really just pursue their careers. And so here I am trying to figure out what I wanted to do. So yeah, I did take on that job because I wanted to be like one of them. I wanted to be in the city and you know, get my coffee. In the morning and go for runs around the Thames during my lunchtime, like they all did

Jonathan Collaton: 35:06

Did you have to wear a suit to work every day?

Josh De Luna: 35:07

Yeah, I wore a suit, you know, it will be cool expenses that you had going up for work lunches, all of that work drinks, you know, it was great. But again, not what I wanted to do working in, you know, working in sort of that fast paced city job of constantly having to bring in clients constantly having to bring in money. Again, it is not something that as somebody in their early 20s, I wanted to do, because I knew for a fact, there wasn't really, for me any sort of learning going on in that job, it was just kind of like, meet people talk people tell people you can sell them something like it was just kind of a constant routine, there wasn't, you know, every day was kind of always the same. And so, you know, I kind of did think, well, what, why? why did why am I kind of stuck in this kind of limbo place after university, you know, between my friends getting the careers, between all the Instagram pressures that was going on in social media? Why am I kind of stuck in this Limbo of just going round in circles of doing jobs that I didn't want to do doing? pursuing careers that I knew I my heart was not fully in it, my passion was not fully in it. And I think you had mentioned earlier on in your podcast, actually, you said something along the lines of you were just really curious about, you know, figuring out the path that people took, right, like, because at the end of the day, me and my friends came from the same place like we all kind of grew up together. So why was it suddenly that they were pursuing such skyscraping paths in comparison to what I was doing? And I think that, for the most part, a lot of that pressure came, because you decided to bring it upon yourself, my, my friends didn't pressure me to get that city job in London, or get that city lifestyle, they enjoyed it for themselves. That wasn't for me, that just happened. Like it wasn't for me. So I think that it took me a long time to figure out actually the path that I'm on, isn't going to compare to anybody else's. It's my own path. And that's my own thing that I'm doing. And I think for the most part, all those pressures that I had, you know, both culturally with friends, social media, society, all of those pressures kind of was beginning to really bog me down and kind of really, sort of their weight was beginning to, to kind of Mount especially considering I was somebody who hadn't really figured out what I wanted to do. That's, that was the reality of it. I hadn't figured out what I wanted to do. I hadn't really figured out who I was,

Jonathan Collaton: 37:55

You were just working jobs to make money, to work jobs.

Josh De Luna: 37:57

You you're kind of just working jobs, you know, and I think that when you had graduated uni, because you have a degree, you do feel like, well, I've got a degree, you know, there's no way they're not going to want me, you know, there's kind of that hubris attached to once you've graduated, and thinking that you kind of take can take on the wild forgetting that there were 3000 other people there with you.

Jonathan Collaton: 38:22

Yeah, and I'm curious like how I wonder about that sort of mindset, just because the statistically Canada has the highest percentage of post secondary educated adults in the world. So I think here with a lot of a lot of people would say that just having like an undergrad degree is not really enough, because you've got it, you're not separate from anybody else. You gotta kind of have have more than that. And so, like, I know, for, for me, I didn't think because I have a degree, I'm going to be able to get a job, I thought, like, I needed something else. And that's why I volunteered my ass off and university to try and get extra experience that helped me get a job one day. Is, is the mindset overall, a little bit different in the UK would you say? Or is it just because you knew you were in like a competitive program? You had a degree with some weight behind it?

Josh De Luna: 39:10

Yeah, you're a part of it was that because I knew for a fact I was like, I did such a cool degree, you know, I I don't need all of this pressure. And part of it as well was having grown up in, you know, I went to school, like I said, in sort of a low income bracket school. We were constantly told that, you know, people around our area in our community didn't go to school, like, you guys are always told to be the first generation in your family to go to university like you were the first. So that kind of thinking of, actually, I've achieved something that many of my teachers told me nobody else had achieved before, suddenly was kind of, in my mind thinking Actually, you know what, I've achieved that You know what comes next? And what comes after? Yeah. And I think that that's a pressure most young, most young people don't really think about is that they think about, and I think that was the problem, right? Because, for me, a huge part of life was just getting to the degree, right, because you wanted to appease whoever you wanted to just get through it. But suddenly, when the appeasing is done, what came after was the thing that nobody...

Jonathan Collaton: 40:27

that's a great point, because I've thought about that before, like, I always need a target to aim at, or else like, what the hell am I doing? Up until the end of the university, there's always a target, like you, when you're younger, you go to elementary school, which for us is like up till grade eight, and then High School, up to grade 12. So you graduate when you're 17 to 18. And then university would be four years. And so you graduate at 22, 21-22. Yeah, and then, and then what and then get a job and, but then once you have the job, like now what I have a job, but if you're not happy with it, and you don't have fulfilled, now, you've got to figure out who are you appeasing now? Your parents are happy, you got a job and so now what?

Josh De Luna: 41:10

And exactly, and I think that when I, you know, the other thing about it as well, is that when you have sort of all those external pressures, navigating what you did, suddenly, when those external pressures go away, you're forced to think about, well, actually, internally, how do I navigate this, because there's no way on earth that I could know how to navigate anything, because so much of it had been dominated by those external pressures. So I think for me, I was kind of jumping hoops and leaping job to job, because of the fact that I didn't really know how to navigate how to make those choices, ultimately, right? Because I was sort of like, Well, you know, my parents told me I should do this, or my friends are doing this. So I should do this. And, and I always said, as well, you know, the other thing as well is one of the biggest pressures I think that people have is just the feeling of getting left behind. That was, yeah, that was one of my like, my biggest fears growing up was just the feeling of like, being the least successful one, or being the one who just didn't achieve the things that they said that they wanted to write. And so yeah, I think when my friends were in these careers, that and they've done so well, and I'm so proud of all of them. for yourself internally, you're like, holy, you know, you just you don't know how to move forward with that. And I think that that's, but I think at the end of the day, that long winded approach to my career was so vital, because actually going from job to job is what made me go back to university, I pursued a master's in law. And I was like, You know what, let me give law another try. But let me give it another go and see if I enjoy it, without the pressures and enjoy it for myself, like, let me try it. So I did do the Masters in law, and I loved it. I loved doing things. So independently, and I was like, You know what, actually, there's a lot of difference and a lot of change I could make. I did a lot of like pro bono volunteering work when I was doing my masters and I was doing these sort of telephone legal consultations, and I was, you know, and I was like doing mooting, I was so suddenly involved in the, in the, what you would do as a, as a lawyer or solicitor, and I was kind of not actually I can see myself carving out a career in this. I don't. And I actually enjoy it. Because I, I've made that decision for myself. So yeah, I left again, I left my kind of my city job in London, not knowing what I wanted to do, maybe application to do my masters and I didn't think I was going to get in. And they were like, by the way, your your age, you can start in October. And I was like I did. What do I do? And even now me and my mom laughed because my mom said to me, she she knew that I was going through a tough time. And she said she basically said she always jokes because she said what would you have done if you just did not get it? Because Because you know, you're really left that, you know, it was a really nice paying job in the city and she was like, you just left that job because you weren't happy with it. What would you have done? If you didn't get into your master's program? And I always sort of said well, you know, at the back of my head is not what I wanted to do and you know, your if your guts telling you something, I think that's one thing that you know, I've also learned is to trust my instincts a bit more because not enough people do. And so I was like you know what, you just got to just gotta get on whether. So yeah, so no. Yeah, sorry.

Jonathan Collaton: 45:04

No, no, sorry. I just I'm curious about the practical timeline of that, you know, to like really give people an example of like, How long were you in that job? And then...

Josh De Luna: 45:14

I was just so I was, I was doing social care for like, a few months, like five months, six months, maybe. And then I left that job. I think I left that job in December. And so the following year, I got into the private sector job in, in, commissioned in console consultancy, I think I had that job for like, until September.

Jonathan Collaton: 45:42

How long between the two jobs were you off?

Josh De Luna: 45:45

Between? Like, two weeks?

Jonathan Collaton: 45:47

Oh, wow. Like you didn't jump from one directly to the other. Did you

Josh De Luna: 45:52

know I Well, I didn't go from one job to the other. I left the job in December, had my two week Christmas break. And then was making applications over Christmas. And then had an interview, I think the first week of January, and

Jonathan Collaton: 46:06

Wow so you got picked up really quick.

Josh De Luna: 46:07

Yeah. And so the week after, they were like, do you want to start? And I was like, Yeah, sure. Like, I can do this job. Let's do it. Like, let me live by London City Life. I've got use suits that weekend with my mom. I was like, mom I'm gonna be a city boy.

Jonathan Collaton: 46:21

You probably like spent way too much on buying new suits. Right?

Josh De Luna: 46:24

Definitely. Yeah, definitely. The sort of oversized jackets like that. So slick. Yeah. Yeah, getting them in different colors. Yes, definitely. You know, you do that. And then I think around over the summer, I did the job. And I think it was over the summer, I had another friend who I made on the job, his French and his family's French. And he used to like traverse frauds over the summer, and he would disappear. And he'd come back. And he just came back from from his holiday one time. I was like, I hate this job. Like we were drinking at a bar. And he just turned around to me as I hate this job. And I turned around, I was like, Thank God because I thought I was the only one because genuinely we were we were with people who really was like living that lifestyle of like, yeah, Leonardo DiCaprio and Wolf of Wall Street was not even joking. Like, they were really loving it. And we both turned around to each other. I was like, there has to be more to this than meeting the same people every single day, talking to them about the same services or products that we offer. There has to be more. And me and him were just like confessing to each other, like, I really hate this job, like, like, when do we get to leave? And so we both made a pact. And we said we have to leave by the end of the month. And I said, Yeah, but the end of the end of the month, is in a week. He was like, Well, then let's do it fast. So we both looked at each other. And we were both like, Okay, so what, where do we go from here. And I told him, and he got a job for me, actually, he got a job at this sort of startup tech company in London, who was it's a bit weird, but he ended up knowing somebody in the master's program that I ended up going on. But anyway, he kind of did that job. And I was kind of looking at him being like, Damn, like, even you've left me behind, like, we want to make this time together, and you've left me behind. But then I got accepted into my master's program. And I said, I said to myself, listen, I think I might go back to uni. And it just turned out to me as I think you should go for it like, and he he kind of pushed me to the low actually, because he said to me, he was like, Listen, you've, you've kind of taken all this time avoiding it. But something about you keeps wanting to come back to it. So clearly, you wouldn't have made ours, you wouldn't have spent hours with those applications. If you knew for a fact you didn't at least want to try it or at least wanted to pursue it. And he kind of just went this and do the master's program. I know you won't be earning that much money and you know what you would be delaying your career by another year. But you need to like take this time, just to take a breather, because you've kind of been on a whirlwind since you left uni. And you need to take a breather, you need to take yourself back into sort of the the what you love, which is just learning and just educating yourself and absorbing and being around people like minded to you. And I said you know what? You're right. So I did that master's program. We started in October.

Jonathan Collaton: 49:41

So I guess I want to ask about your application quickly, just because like that seems like a very... you were talking about the end of summer so leaving that job or you mentioned summer and then October. So are we talking about just like a couple months between that job when you decided to leave when you started your master's?

Josh De Luna: 49:57

There was three weeks? I two and a half...

Jonathan Collaton: 50:00

Three weeks? So you must have been applying to the Masters while you were still working.

Josh De Luna: 50:05

Yeah, I was I was kind of cuz he had said that he had secured this interview. And I was like, Well, what do I, what do I really want to do? And at that point, master's was kind of a thing that I'd always wanted to explore anyway. So I said, Well, what would be my master's on? And that's kind of when I had my existential crisis of being like, do I actually want to do law for myself? And I think as well, it was made a lot easier because me and him we would spend almost every single day after work in a bar somewhere, just discussing about what we would be doing with our life, like genuinely dreaming, hoping. And yeah, you know, you'd put the tab on the expenses, you know, after work, meeting, that kind of stuff. And we would every single night we would talk about, I think, when we got started really getting close to each other was like around June, July. And we were like, let's you want to hang out. And I was like, yeah, sure, let's, let's hang out. We went for dinner, I think together. And we were both looking at each other. And we were drinking as I was hoping if you weren't doing this, what would you want to do? And that kind of unraveled itself, eventually to the conversation of being like, I hate this job. And actually, there was one time we were it's really weird how sometimes coincidences work. But when we were having dinner together, it was really late. I think it was, must have been like a Friday night, it was really late. Nobody was really around and the restaurant was closing up. And we were both sort of talking. And the manager of the restaurant came to us was that Oh, guys, it's closing time. But we spent, we spent like every day there. So they were like, Don't worry, we'll be gone in like the next 30 minutes. And he was like, No, no, it's fine. If you want to finish the drinks, take your time. And then what happened was, while we were having drinks, I noticed that we weren't the only ones in the restaurant, there was another lady across the the whole from us. And she had like these massive binders. And I was like, Damn, like, look at her still working. It must be so stressful. Like it's awful. And we were talking. And my friend was I want to just go up to an Oscar what she does, because you're so curious about people. That was another thing about me. I'm very nosy. So I was like, No, no, no. So my friend goes to the bathroom. And I went up to this random to this random lady, and being like, Excuse me, miss, what do you do with all this? With all these binders, I already 20s me I was so she must have been so freaked out. She's actually I'm a solicitor working for this law firm, blah, blah, blah, as I have, like, I do not envy you at all for the career that you have, like, you're still working. And she was like, actually, it's not like this every day. And she I don't think I can disclose the case that she was working on. But she was working on this. This child Children's Law case, and really was into it. She was working in this family law case involving children and minors, and I believe it was something about domestic abuse. But she was really passionate about it. She was like, you know, it's not like this everyday. But this case, in particular, it's, you know, I'm really close to it. And you know, I really have worked so hard on it. And we've got a trial coming all of this. And I remember looking at her being like, and leaving that conversation be like thank you for you know, sharing your story, blah, blah, can I get your card, she gives me her card. I sat down, back and my friend came back. I was like, so did you ask her? I was like, Yeah, and I was I think I think I'm gonna do my boss says, I think that I'm gonna pursue that. And yeah, next the following week, we handed in our resignations together, we were like, are we doing it? Who's doing it first? What are we doing? We both did it together, we both kind of took a leap of faith together. Which was nice to do that with somebody, but I knew I was ready to leave. And I knew that I was ready to actually, you know, let me pursue this properly with my own intention. And, and my own kind of under my own terms, I think which was something that had never really happened before. You know, I had never kind of dictated what I wanted to do. So I did that. And then suddenly, I was doing my master's program. Again, enjoying life. I'd worked part time as a bartender. So it's really odd because I was working behind the bar once because I was doing my master's but that was only kind of like part time. Or at least like contact hours weren't that much. So I would only be at university, like six hours during the week. So The rest of it. Yeah,

Jonathan Collaton: 55:01

yeah. The rest of it was considered independent reading. And, you know, I picked up a part time job as a bartender, and I used to the people I used to work with in the city would come to the bar, and I'd be the one serving them. And they'd look at me be like, you left our job for this, this Yeah, working behind the bar. But you're like, well, then you better tip me well.

Josh De Luna: 55:27

yeah, I know, I was I know how much you guys aren't. But yeah, they'd come in, I'd see some of them. And they'd be like, you're here, like, what happened? Like, what went wrong? But actually, nothing went wrong. I, you know, I did my masters, learn a few cocktail tricks along the way, loved working behind the bar, and studying at the same time, I definitely felt like I was sort of, you know, I was kind of, I think that was the other thing as well is that I had that job as a bartender to kind of transition me into, like, I had never really known what like real grifting work was like, sort of that a hard part time job, I never really had that uni. My parents had reimburse my entire university lifestyle, I've never had that. So it was, I kind of had that job, because my parents were like, Listen, you're doing your masters. We're not paying for any of it anymore. Like this is on you now. And so, you know, I had to find pocket money somewhere. And I really enjoyed the people I worked with, I enjoyed, you know, sort of learning tricks of the trade being really enjoy just enjoying being in the city, but in a different context. And at the same time learning so I would, you know, work in a bar at nights over the weekend. And then Monday, I'd wake up, go to uni. And it was really fun. And people would come to the bar, and they'd question my decisions. And they'd be like, Why? Why did you leave your five figure job to be a bartender, and I'd be like, this is a really hard work. Like, I doubt any of you would be able to deal with the crap that we deal with on like, a Saturday night when you guys are starting fights. When city boys decide that they're going to, you know, mess man up each other. But I, ultimately it didn't matter what they thought about my decision, because I knew for a fact I was on a path to something that I was doing under my own terms. I was working as a bartender to make ends meet. And yeah, and that led me to sort of where I am that kind of tenacity. I really developed working as a bartender, and sort of my argumentativeness that that was developed as a bartender. So it's funny how those things can totally be related.

Jonathan Collaton: 57:45

That you know, what you're saying what it's making me think is that like, when when people that you work with, we're looking at you as a bartender, and they're, they're looking at it as like a step back, predominantly, because like they mentioned, you mentioned the money, right? The money you were making as a bartender was definitely not the same money you were making in this other job. But sometimes, and you knew at that point in time, a bartender wasn't the forever gig. And so like, sometimes you take a step back financially, to take two steps forward. And, and even if even if it's a step back to take a step forward, but in a different direction. Yeah, like that's, that's okay. One of the things I've been really wrapping my head around is that taking a different job with a lower salary is amazing if you're way happier. So yeah, it's it like there is this now, like, I've come up before, like money does rule the world and a lot of ways, but you only need so much money, right? Yeah. And so the all of society right now is starting to rebel against some of these billionaires who have done just fine during COVID and got bail. Yeah, Jeff Bezos with almost $200 billion. And his employees have only gotten a 1.3% raise or something like that. Yeah. But this is not a podcast about that. So that's for.. you and me can started another podcast to talk about billionaires, and bailouts.

Josh De Luna: 59:13

Absoloutely, i'm here for it

Jonathan Collaton: 59:14

Billionairs and Bailouts. That'd be a pretty good name for it too.

Josh De Luna: 59:17

Here for I'm honest, I've already I've got my microphone. Perfect. That's great.

Jonathan Collaton: 59:21

But But anyway, the, the idea that you can make less money and still be happy, or be happier, especially when it's something you're doing on the side while you're working towards something else. Like it's only and only you need to know that it doesn't matter if your friend says they can look at you and say whatever they want, but like if you're happy, who cares?

Josh De Luna: 59:44

And I think at the end of the day, as well, the other thing about it was, I think what we've learned throughout this sort of pandemic, and certainly I learned it working as a bartender is the salary. The salary that you have really does not dictate the work and the sort of the heart work that you put it, all right, because we all know that people on the frontlines working in groceries working in shop France, they don't get paid a lot. But they're the ones who are still working, selling you the food that you need in order to survive this pandemic, right. So it's always those sort of frontline service workers that at the end of the day are the most vital. And I think that when I was certainly working, I knew for a fact there was a level of like, stubbornness. And certainly, what's the word, sort of people turning up their noses, because I'd left this fancy job, and suddenly they were looking at me being like, we feel really sorry for you that it didn't work out. But you know, at the end of the day, working as a bartender was really, I have a lot of gratitude for having done that job. Because I really enjoyed it. And it didn't, I knew for a fact. And I think that that's when I had that realization, and I knew I was ready to pursue a career in law was, then I had that mindset of actually, you no longer need to dictate the mindset that I have about the certain job that I have, right? I knew for a fact whether I was going to be a bartender for the rest of my life, or a lawyer or whatever. Ultimately, that would be my decision, that wouldn't be anybody else's. And I think that once you kind of it took me a long while to get to that mature stage of not comparing myself to anybody else. I mean, don't get me wrong now. And again, I certainly have a bit of like, a, when people reach milestones in my friendship group, like getting married, or all of those things, I'm like, Damn, we're really growing up. But that's kind of my own internal fear of like, I don't want to get old. But that's not that doesn't dictate necessarily any more what, how I should make choices in my life, that it's purely dictated by me. And I think that that's some, that's truly something that I learned after, you know, I started pursuing things that I knew I wanted to, for the benefit of me or my career, or just genuinely just learning things. Okay.

Jonathan Collaton: 1:02:09

So I think we're getting close to, to where you ended up now, in your career, and we've had, we've had such a good convo, we've just gone off in so many amazing tangents that we've like, still only finished you being at law school, but so when you finish that one year Master's, did you, like immediately just go out get a job in law, and you've loved it ever since? Or what happened?

Josh De Luna: 1:02:29

No, I, I think a lesson that I learned was that I had to take my time, right. Like I said, I was sort of rolling through jobs, when when I was early on in after I left University, you know, two weeks in between a new job, you know, that kind of stuff. And I knew that I had to really take my time. So when I finished my master's, there was a whole summer. And I decided, you know what, let me just let me just take the summer for myself. And I continued working at the bar. When traveling with a few of my friends that I made there, I was really fortunate, I worked in a behind a bar that had so many different people behind that, you know, I was working with like they were French and Spanish and Italians and Germans and Dutch. So it was really good fun. So I would be visiting them for a weekend their hometowns. And so I took a summer of just traveling, enjoying myself and being like, I don't need to rush this. So after I graduated, I took time, I thought about what area of law do I actually want to pursue? Because it's, it's not going to be in something that is very like Wolf of Wall Street, right? It was never going to be that because I had a taste of that. And I didn't like it. So I thought to myself was I will what, what actually, where can I? Where can I continue to learn, explore myself and also really do something that I'm interested in. So I ended up working. I ended up applying for the firm that I work in now we work predominantly in civil litigation. So we're mainly in court going through the court process. And yeah, and so I applied for the job, I think in September, so I had like a whole few months where I really thought about taking my time and knowing that sometimes you just take pause you just have to pause and think you don't need to rush this right you don't need to rush it or at least for me rush it again. Because when you did that it didn't work out well.

Jonathan Collaton: 1:04:39

Yeah. Which sounds like very different from your Wolf of Wall Street experience where it's, I'm sure it's like how many sales can I make today? I gotta bring in as much money as possible. I'm sure there was those like 'always be closing' type people with that set where they just got to make more sell more paycheck that type of stuff.

Josh De Luna: 1:04:57

Or like the question always is how many leads have you got, you know How many leads? Who can you close this week? Like how much money you're making all of that? And for me, it money is never the motivation, although it is sort of the means to an end. I like nice things. Sorry to say that. Sorry. admit that. But I do. But it doesn't. I knew for a fact it wouldn't dictate my motivations in whatever career pursuits. So yeah, I kind of Yeah, I, before that I was bartending a whole summer and I was, I was drinking the nights away and thinking, you know, I had all the time in the world, which in many ways I kind of did, because ultimately, when the job that I pursued the job opening that I have now came up, somebody else was already in my position, and they had left. And so I'm currently working in law and really enjoying it. But knowing that I'm also enjoying it, because it's under my own terms, I actually took the time to really assess the situation in front of me. And ultimately, I'm in this position for myself, and because I'm not comparing myself to anybody else, you know, or whether I'm comparing myself to my friends, or, like you said social media, or bowing to the pressures of society or culture or whatever, whatever other things that you would bow out to. Yeah, I'm, ultimately I'm still learning and I'm still trying to understand what I want to do every day. But working in the career that I'm in, I, I certainly feel relieved that I'm actually pursuing the career that that I wanted for myself.

Jonathan Collaton: 1:06:44

And and it also satisfies what your parents wanted you to do. So how great is that?

Josh De Luna: 1:06:49

I know, right? That's a bonus that that's a bonus.

Jonathan Collaton: 1:06:52

came back around full circle now. And everything that mom and dad were telling you to do. Now you've you're doing it, but you're doing it for you, not for them. And everybody's happy. That's great. Yeah. All right. Well, so that brings us to where we are today. But before we wrap up here, I do want to mention that you yourself have a podcast, which is one of the ways that we originally got connected. We were both at vid fest about a month ago, and which was a great conference for me about how to try and utilize online video platforms to leverage leverage them to make your podcast grow. And so I loved it and you messaged me while we were attending this online conference, and we got chatting. And so

Josh De Luna: 1:07:35

He didn't like me in the beginning, guys, he didn't like me in the beginning, he ignored my messages.

Jonathan Collaton: 1:07:39

totally ignored him. totally ignored him. But anyway, we're talking now. And so tell us...

Josh De Luna: 1:07:48

I slid into his DMS.

Jonathan Collaton: 1:07:49

Yes, that's right. So tell everybody about your podcast and where they can find it.

Unknown: 1:07:54

Yes. So I am co host a podcast called Tea with Coconut and Plantain. I do it with my friend z. No. And essentially, it's a podcast where we talk about pop culture, politics, and sort of the integration of all of the things around our society, when it comes to your identity and really exploring all of those topics through the lens of our identity. So yeah, we do it all over a cup of tea. So if any of you out there want to join us for a nice cuppa, honestly, you can check us out wherever you get your podcasts. We're on Spotify, Apple podcasts, Deezer or anywhere else. Google. All of them.

Jonathan Collaton: 1:08:39

Yeah, perfect. Okay, well, that's great. And I'll put a link in the show notes in case people want to find it there. Josh, thanks so much for coming on today and sharing your story. It's we had that was a really good combo about like, not even the journey of your career, but all the like pressures of society and how really just what you want is all that matters as long as you can make a living.

Josh De Luna: 1:09:02

Yeah, definitely. Thank you for having me. This has been so much fun and I feel like it's kind of like a nice therapy session for me

Jonathan Collaton: 1:09:10

That's what it is. That's actually in my very first intro episode. I said this is like therapy for me and everyone else just gets to listen. So yeah, I'm glad that 17 or 18 episodes in I don't know what number this one is going to be exactly, but we've hit the nail on the head as therapy. So

Josh De Luna: 1:09:26

Well if you want to come full circle, I think we have to close on what our favorite Star Wars Episode for Star Wars film is.

Jonathan Collaton: 1:09:32

Yeah. I'm either episode five or or Rigue One.

Josh De Luna: 1:09:37

Episode 5?!? Episode Five should not even be a contender, Jonathan. I'm sorry about that.

Jonathan Collaton: 1:09:43

Excuse me?

Josh De Luna: 1:09:43

It's, I have to say of the originals. It's the worst one.

Jonathan Collaton: 1:09:48

Oh my god. It's widely considered the best of the originals.

Josh De Luna: 1:09:52

No, it's not. I think that that's like a marketing ploy that you've you've submitted yourself. The best one is Episode Four. No doubt.

Jonathan Collaton: 1:10:02

Okay, I mean, yeah. All right. Well, before we get into too much of a fight on here, I'm gonna shut it down. So thanks again, Josh.

Josh De Luna: 1:10:11

Thank you.

Jonathan Collaton: 1:10:16

Alright, so that is Josh's career path thus far. The man who left for Brazil, thinking he may never return is now a lawyer. So now let's sum up what we can learn from Josh. Now with a lot of people I talk to I find multiple takeaways from their interview. But with Josh, I really just found one big theme that kept coming up over and over and over. And that is that peer pressure does not do you any good. Josh and I talked a lot about how well he thought his friends were doing and his feelings that he needed to compete with that. skyscraping paths. That was the phrase to use when talking about his friends careers. And multiple times, he mentioned Instagram and multiple times, he mentioned having his Wolf of Wall Street moment. And if you've seen that movie, you know, it's all about the big lifestyle, the big money, the big cars, things like that. He went 100% picked up jobs that he thought would give him that same lifestyle, give him that same Wolf of Wall Street feeling of accomplishment. But none of them really stuck, because he wasn't really happy doing any of them. Until he was a bartender. Sure, he needed that job while he was in his master's program. But he said he was giving it another kick at the can another try to see if law was truly the right thing for him. But the bartender job, he loved it. He talked a lot about how great inexperienced that was. In fact, he stuck around for an extra four months after graduating from his master's program to continue working at that bar. Josh found the fun in work. And it sounds like that's because he was finally doing something for himself, and not to compete with anyone else, or because something was expected of them. And you heard him at the end there talk about how he's in a place in his life where he's not worried about any of that anymore. He's happy with what he's doing. And now he's a lawyer. And clearly, he's very happy doing that. And it's because he's doing it on his own terms. It's because he finally came to the realization that he does want to be a lawyer, and not because anybody else wants him to be a lawyer. So I think the takeaway there is, whatever you see online, whatever competition you might feel you're in with those around you. You're not just figure out what you want to do and figure out your steps towards what you want to do. Other people might view it as a step back, but you know, it's a step back to take a step forward, or two steps back to take a step forward, or step to the side. And if you end up being a bartender along the way, Oh, that sounds like a pretty fun job to me. And that is what I learned from Josh. Now, as a follow up to this interview, I really think I need to get a larger sample size of people's feelings on what is the best Star Wars movie. So head over to career Crossroads Instagram page, and find the green picture with Josh's animated face on it, and let the man know where your allegiance lies. Episode Four, Episode Five, Rogue One? Are you going to go off the board pick another one? Are you one of those people that was raised during the prequel era like I was, and you have this fondness for this movie that everybody else seems to trash online? Well, let us know. If you don't have Instagram, go to the contact page on career Crossroads podcast.com and flip me a message because I'm going to compile all of these thoughts into a spreadsheet with graphs and with PowerPoint Word Art. And I'm going to slide it into Josh's DM's, because I really feel like if nothing else, if we can't get to the bottom of what my next career move should be with this podcast. At least, we can solve the question of which Star Wars is the best Star Wars. Anyways, thanks for listening. And if you like the show, tell a friend and subscribe on your favorite podcast player or join the career Crossroads mailing list so that you get notified next week when my interview with Sarahbeth goes live. Between attending six universities in four states in the USA, and working numerous jobs along the way to a PhD. Sarabeth tells me how her beginnings as an art teacher have led to her current job of studying career hybridity. What is career hybridity you might be wondering? well, you'll have to tune in next week to find out.